By Revd Roland
Before Fr Ian continues his series on prayer Revd Roland questions the relevance of such a traditional understanding.
Ian's articles on prayer are interesting, profound and very conventional, but I think it is Ray's simple comment that really challenges our understanding of prayer. I too would challenge those who speak in the language of :
"Oh, when I have a problem, a question to solve in my life, I ask God and he answers me" (and presumably always gives the right answer).
I meet a number of people/friends who use this language. So like Ray, I would ask them to describe how this works in practice. Do they hear God's voice?
"Roland do this, or Roland do that."
Or is the communication with God more subtle.
"I battle with the issue at hand in my mind, in my conscience , and God tickles my conscience and sways my decisions one way or another."
Or am I missing the point completely? If you know the answer, then please explain how this communication with God works?
I personally have endless problems with a God telling, advising me what to do.
1. People who hear voices are very often either deluding themselves or suffering from mental illness.
2. As adult humans we are constantly having to make decisions which are going to impact the lives of people around us; some for the good, some for the not so good.
So in asking God to arbitrate, we risk turning God into one of those politicians we listen to every day on TV and radio, forced to defend one policy over another. Don't we risk making God "small".
Sorry, but for me God is something much greater than that. (I know that is a big statement, but I hope you get my general drift.) There is a divinity in God which is far above our often petty squabblings and worries.
3. In asking God to decide for us in difficult decisions, are we not simply abrogating our own responsibility? When I have a difficult decision to make, I agonise over the implications. If I sway one way, some will be pleased, others will be hurt and disappointed, and vice versa. Should I really be passing the decisions, the buck onto God?
I suspect that all these questions come down to what is our relationship with God.
Traditional Christian thought (and Ian quotes this in his latest article) is that humanity is in a Father / child relationship with God. So we are children, who should / must trust God, and do as we are told or advised - otherwise we risk becoming wayward, feral.
I wonder whether it is time to ditch that rather primitive view? In my own spiritual development I'm starting to explore a different relationship.
Rather than a pre-pubescent child relationship with God, what about a Father / son relationship, in which I, the son am actually a grown up, mature human being with children and grandchildren of my own, and I'm very capable of taking responsibility for my own decisions - whilst having a Father who I can turn to, and receive unconditional love.
Do I need a God / Father to make my decisions for me? People must speak for themselves, but I've grown up, I'm a man not a child. As a man I can and do make my own decisions for better or worse. (Apologies if I sound pompous, but come on – let’s get real.)
I suspect that God the Father wants a mature grown up relationship with us, just as I hope and dream to have with my own children (and grandchildren one day) To see my own son grown up and independent, making his own decisions, is one of the greatest joys and pleasures of my life, as a father.
Does God really want to be surrounded by pre-pubescent, dependent children, or does he want a mature relationship with us?
Interesting viewpoint, Roland. "I have prayed about this so I know I'm right" (substitute "we") ... "They can't be right because my spiritual understanding is Christian and so I know I am right: they have nothing to contribute ...." Blah blah ...
ReplyDeleteHearing from God ... I heard of clair voyance: Word Origin mid 19th cent.: from French. from clair 'clear' + voir 'to see'. Some "see" others clair hear, and others receive pictures, voices, writing on the wall or whatever according to which of their individual senses is
sharpest, most receptive. There is no one way of receiving from God and no one way is right or wrong. Some hear a clear audible "word": "And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul". Others: "your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams". Me, I am a daydreamer, imaginative and I have visualizations: I "see" the end of the world or heaven. Of course this is highly unreliable and I need grounding and re-grounding before I can really believe that these "insights" have been sifted through to my mind from God. I gaze and contemplate.
Now the topic was making our decisions as mature adults or going to God as a little child for directions. In traditional communities, decisions were best reached by consensus, elders, not by one person. It seems this is still a good model. Guidance needed? One person stands up and shouts "In the mighty name of Jesus .... Thus saith the Lord!!!" Or discuss with a group of elders? I think I would go for the latter.
Did Adolf Hitler grow up to maturity and make his own decisions? While having a father he could turn to for unconditional love?
No, I am not comparing R to H. Just that hearing from God involves listening to each other and a spirit of submission. That is what a church eldership is for.
It seems that submission is a requisite and perhaps submitting to God in short trousers is not such a bad thing.
So far in the comments on prayer there's been quite a heavy emphasis on the personal and subjective element: individual experience of prayer. But to be formed in faith, in relationship with God and in prayer, subjective experience isn't enough.
ReplyDeleteIf I want to learn how to play a musical instrument or drive a fork-lift truck I can try to do it on my own, with my own resources and abilities, or I can undertake training and avail myself of the knowledge and techniques that have accumulated over the years and which individuals, who are more talented and more experienced than I am, have a better grasp of.
Something similar is true of Christian spirituality and the practice of prayer. The attitude of the smart alec teenager who knows it all, looks down on his teachers and resents criticism and correction is out of place in the spiritual life and will hamper progress. To put it in the words of Saint Bernard of Clairvaux: 'Anyone who takes himself for his own spiritual director is the disciple of a fool.'
The advice of Christian friends is vital, but so is the teaching of the great spiritual masters and the schools of spirituality they've left us, Augustine, Benedict, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Ignatius, and countless others. As a priest I've met many people with eccentric and idiosyncratic views on 'spiritualty', often gleaned from the 'Mind, Body Spirit' section of modern bookshops. They don't come near the wisdom of the teachers I just mentioned and the great fault of self-styled gurus today is their ignorance of the spiritual classics.
In the above post Roland has criticised people who claim that God speaks to them very clearly and gives clear answers to questions, even comparing them to mentally ill individuals who hallucinate and hear voices in their head. I would also be sceptical of these claims in the sense that discernment is always necessary when we are asking God for guidance. It's often extremely difficult to know God's will for us. 'Truly you are a God who hides himself' (Isaiah 45:15) is a common experience, God's silence rather than his clear guidance and instruction.
I find Roland's hostility towards the idea of God as our Father and our dependence on God a bit odd. Our relationship with God is never a relationship between equals and can never be. The scriptural images underlining the nature of our relationship with God - Father-child, shepherd-sheep, king-subject - are simply describing a reality: God is an entirely different and superior being to us and far above us in his divine qualities of perfect love, goodness, truth, justice and so on.
But this isn't just the lesson of Scripture and the teaching of Jesus. I would suggest that the Christian who prays to God, formed by Christian beliefs and principles, gradually learns that a father-child 'dependent' relationship with God is the only shape our relationship with him can take.
It's not about being childish and avoiding adult responsibilities because Christian life is also about growth in the imitation of Christ in his commitment to God's reign, his clear moral vision and prophetic boldness, and his sacrificial love and carrying of the cross. If we do that, it takes us in the opposite direction from any childish attitude to life and a desire to avoid an adult sense of responsibility.
Zippadeedooda ..... well I read that Fr. Ian. Now, I would like to say: When did you last hear from God the Father, and what exactly did He say? For that matter, in the last 2 weeks or 2 months or 2 years? WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU??? Thanks in advance.
ReplyDeleteA great topic to be engaging and a wide range of pointers for anyone “just looking “ on the forum to follow. To pick up on Roland’s focus on our family relationship with our Heavenly Father, there is all the difference in the world between Father/child and Father/son or daughter. Some ladies we know see themselves spiritually as in “Father/son”, despite their physical gender.” Jill goes with “Yahweh&daughter”.
ReplyDelete“Father/child” is dependency; “Father/son” is union, partnership and relationship from which as Roland says may come actions and decisions that the Father is trusting us with. I’ll say also that He sometimes trusts us to speak to situations (Mark 11:21-24) to bring about “On Earth as it is in Heaven”
Some might say: “that’s not a prayer”. Well, we’re rethinking prayer…
Ray, you asked for exx , so I've given one below.
ReplyDeleteBut 1st:This whole dualistic concept of a god " out there" that we pray to, is very helpful as symbolic language, and can produce wonderful results, but my experience is that things are not really like that.
I agree with Ian that we should include old spiritual writings in our teachings but most of the mystics(eg Eckhart, St. John of the Cross) make it quite clear that their own ultimate Christian experience of Union with God is non- dualistic and that we and God are one unity. There is no Asking or Answering or Listening, only Being. " I entered in- I know not where...surpassing far all human lore" (St John of the Cross).
For me, real prayer is the effort to bring myself back into this state of unity , where the individual sense of self disappears. When that has happened spontaneously, inexplicable things have happened.
But that doesn't stop me praying hard about things and people, in the hope that my concentrated effort will alter something, somewhere. I do believe that all things are connected.
Much prayer helps us to reach deep into our own psyche. But some things are beyond that explanation. Ray asked for examples, so here goes. I will abbreviate. :
30 years ago, nice milkman's wife found she had terminal cancer. I didn't know her but was strangely upset. (Easy psych explanation of delayed grief for my mother). At night I found myself wondering whether I would be willing to give up my own happiness if it could cure her. Then I found myself drawn down a dark tunnel. Suddenly I was "told" in a silent "knowing " that she would be healed, but the price was not my happiness but my intellectual pride. After, I assumed it was a dream, with a clear psychological foundation.
2 days later, in church, my blood literally ran cold, when the priest gave thanks for the miraculous healing of the milkman's wife 2 days before. The milkman had been called in to be with her when she died, but instead found her sitting up recovering. Spontaneous remission? Coincidence? After that, I had to get confirmed and start on my own pathway.
Jasmin
Thanks so much Jasmin for sharing so honestly about the lady's healing, and for the background understanding that you have given to how it came about. As you pointed out so clearly, the words and symbols we use are often different, but can lead to spiritual and physical outcomes. I see "On Earth as it is in Heaven" as a vital key to praying for people, even people in the situation of the nice milkman's wife. Forgive me if I misrepresent you, but it was was love and compassion which drew you first to believe for her healing. Then it was what you saw and "heard" 'elsewhere' - in the 'dark tunnel' - that you were instrumental in bringing to Earth and that manifested in her healing. I believe that we can learn from your sharing 1. True prayer starts in love and compassion 2. We are able to know, from 'elsewhere' - whether we call it Heaven, the Dark Cloud, the dark tunnel or 'an altered state of experience' doesn't matter - what is to be done or said or received 3 It's union and partnership - Yahweh&son/daughter - releasing on Earth what is settled in 'Heaven' . Thanks so much for sharing, Jasmin and sorry we missed you when we were in Maentwrog - David and Jill
ReplyDeleteThank you David and Jill. It is hard to talk about these things, isn't it.
DeleteLots of really insightful comments, great stuff.
DeleteI have not read anything here that invalidates my own personal journey of desiring a Father / son relationship with God, where I am the son; a man of 65, with a vast lifetime of experience, knowing some things, being ignorant of a great deal of other things, continuously learning, being aware of my own many prejudices and conditioning, and definitely being humble before God. Just because I call myself a mature man, does not mean that I am equating myself with God in any way. (Other than acknowledging that I am a creature created in the image of God)
I do yearn for a relationship with God.
Taking Ian's advice - I do search for and value "the advice of friends."
Countering Ian's comment about "Roland's hostility towards the God our Father image" On the contrary, I have no problem with God as Father, - my Father. I'm simply exploring who I am in this relationship with God. It seems a sensible and reasonable thing to do , in my mind!
If I was Ian I would ignore Ray's challenge to "Tell us what personal experience you have had with God in the last 2 minutes, 2 hours, 2 days, 2 years" That sounds a bit like jumping into a competition to prove who is the most Christian! "Oh I had a chat with God 2 minutes ago - hey I'm more Holy than you!"
Lets not get into that silly competition.
Anyway, all good stuff, all very human; and I suspect puts a smile on God's face every day. Roland
Well Ray began with the exclamation 'Zippadeedooda!' so I assumed he had been seized by the Holy Spirit and was praying in tongues.
ReplyDeleteActually I thought I had been clear that I don't hear God's voice in my head and reserve judgement somewhat when other people make such claims.
But when I look back over some forty-odd years of adult Christian life I see something of the pattern of God's guidance and direction, the times when I've discerned it correctly and the times when I've not. Here we see through a glass darkly and all that.
On the image of God as our Father we're in danger of talking at cross purposes, I think.
God is our creator, we're his creatures. God is all-holy, we're weak and sinful. God knows everything, our powers of reasoning are very faulty. And so on. Most importantly, God redeems and imparts his grace to us, we don't redeem ourselves or confer gifts on God. We can only respond to and co-operate with his gifts. Against this background 'dependence' is an accurate description of our relationship with God and when we talk, perfectly correctly, about 'union', 'partnership' with God, sharing God's life and so on, we need to remember this essential nature of our relationship with him. I'm sure we can say more about all that later.
One last point: we have to remember that John of the Cross was a member of the Carmelite Order and a Catholic priest, trained in scholastic theology. His understanding of spiritual life and contemplative prayer is thoroughly Christian and indeed Catholic, and he accepted the Christian & Catholic faith as founded on truths revealed by God himself. E.g., God is a Trinity of persons, Jesus is the Incarnate Son of God who redeemed us through his paschal sacrifice and physically rose from the dead. The Eucharist is Christ's Body and Blood and the perpetuation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and so on. John celebrated the same Mass that I do. He was also very strong on the need for purification from sin, a facet of Christian spirituality usually missing from modern spiritualities that boast of 'going beyond' the 'narrow boundaries' of Christianity.
In a free world of course anyone can read the writings of the Catholic mystics but if the prayer and contemplation of God described by these spiritual masters are detached from their Christian faith and pressed into some new and different mould, then we're dealing with straightforward misinterpretation and indeed historical falsification.
I doubt that anyone can accurately interpret John of the Cross if he or she doesn't also share John's faith. The same being true of Mohammed, Buddha, Confucius, or whoever.